Can anyone else relate to the problems faced by this letter writer? Are police doing enough - and if not what else can done?
http://www.shropshirestar.com/2008/02/time...angs-of-youths/

I can relate to it Red but as always there are not enough people making noises ,I think. The laws in this country give kids 'a badge of honour'in the form of ASBO's if they are prosecuted. What they need and we all think this is same I feel is more strong armed tactics by the law. If not I think eventually and might add I do not support this, vigilante groups will set-up which could make things worse. Lets ask the Archbishop of Caterbury shall we perhaps he may suggest we set up some kind of kangaroo court on this!

I agree the SABO thing could backfire because who knows about the ASBO?
a ) The police - that won't bother them.
b ) Their mates - that won't bother them either.

I think name and shame would be an improvement. They clearly don't want everyone knowing (they often wear hoodies or scarfs to hide their faces). So get them in the local paper. Get them on the local news. Get their parents up there too. Shame is a powerful weapon. I'm not saying it's the solution, but it's doing something. The government or opposition chime in every few months saying "we're going to get tough on crime" but they don't do anything. It's just a vote pleaser.

Oh, and letting the police get back to policing the streets rather than doing paperwork would also be a good start :)

What's new? My Grandad died two weeks after chasing youths who tried to break in but this was 40 years ago. He survived the Somme (despite when getting the order to go over the top, throwing the tin of condensed milk he had just opened as he hadn't got a grenade to hand!) He was a prisoner of war and suffered from shell shock. He also later went through the endless days of bombing suffered in the East End but it was the vunerability of old age saw him off in the end.

I saw in the Chronicle that the Old Market Hall plays loud Opera music to try and get rid of the youngsters who congregate there, rather than using the controversial 'Mosquito'. Apparently young people are not a tourist attraction though I beg to differ, my daughter had her photo taken by a Japanese tourist some time back when she was in her goth phase.

With regard to the 'Mosquito,' a neighbour of ours had a cat scarer. (cats being the delinquents of the animal world IHO!) It was placed in his front garden and it nearly drove my children mad.
Fortunately for them (or perhaps I shouldn't say that!) it was stolen. :lol:

Sorry to state the obvious but much tougher penalties are needed. As Andy says, a lot of yobs just see an ASBO as a badge of honour. Maybe a return to the 'short, sharp, shock' - followed by a bit of rehabilitation, is what's needed.
A return of the old fashioned beat bobbies wouldn't be such a bad thing, either. I don't wish to knock the hobby bobbies .. oops, sorry I mean Community Support Officers -I think they're a very well meaning bunch but they're certainly no substitute a proper copper.

As for talk of vigilante groups? I think they might of worked 40 or 50 years ago but we now live in much more dangerous times. How often have we read in the news about a public spirited soul who's ending up seriously injured or killed just for doing what he/she thought was the right thing?

I never had time to hang around the streets when I was around 15-18. Got home from school at around 5.30, then did homework from after dinner until bed. Why are today's children not being given enough homework?

The return of corporal punishment and national service wouldn't hurt either.

As a young lad I remember Teddy Boys. Mods and Rockers later on then skin heads. Now we have yobs.

It would be interesting to hear Mark's opinion on this. What's it like on your side of the pond, Mark?

As I previously said, my Grandad lived in dangerous times too, 40 years ago when he chased after some yobs. They would be their 50/60's now and probably feeling vunerable themselves and maybe they are quite upright citizens now complaining that the world's a worse place than in their youth!

On reflection, are there any times that have not been 'dangerous'?

Easy access to alcohol is something that has made very young teens more vunerable and is something we need to address.

Easy access to all sorts of manipulative persons via the internet is a problem for pre and early teens too.

More formal education in state schools as happens with grant aided and private education. Teachers should really earn the very good pay they receive,their salaries should not be kept a secret but put with advertisments for new posts like anyone else. IMHO :D

Depends how you define the word 'dangerous' really. I doubt many grandads would chase after a group/gang of youngsters up to no good today and survive.

We all know that the consumption of alcohol is illegal under 18 so thats surely down to good parenting as is knowing what your offspring are doing on the internet. My kids know I can check the contents of their hard drive so this helps. I really think the problems are more around illicit drug taking too. As for education, in a nutshell we have the thickest kids in europe so much for teachers !!

The Biggest problem today is the dogooders have stopped the police doing their job properly,human rights etc ,,,,,
50 years ago in my youth I was frightened of what the police would do to me if I was caught doing wrong!!!! I respected the the coppers but always walked a straight line when they were about .... The usual punishment was a very hard clip around the ear then frog marched home where Dad sotred you out as well .....

Well, my Grandad didn't actually. :(

More ordinary people had easy access to guns, many being owned since the end of WW11.
My husband was badly beaten up by skinheads in the 1960s because he was in uniform and attended a minor public school. On another occasion he was shot with an air rifle in the thigh but that was a group of coppers in a squad car!!!

'Yobs attack firemen doing their duty',these are the headlines of late,well why dont the firemen fight back,fire appliances have high pressure water equipment,so why not let these guys use WATER CANNON on these vermin,or would that result in the fire service being sued.

Yes but what would the 'do-gooders' say when little johnnie scraped his knee after taking a jet blast from the hose? One of my mates is a fireman and he tells me if they do not turn their hoses on unruly mobs, they would be disciplined. Lets fight fire with fire I say, or water on these pondlife morons

Might we be viewing the past through rose-tinted specs? - I'm not so sure.
Of course there have always been thugs but I'd say that they were fewer in number. This could have something to do with law being much more effective. The prospect of a stint in borstal probably made many a would-be hooligan think twice.

Today's thugs simply have no fear the law. If they're nicked for for something like bullying or vandalism, what's the worst that can happen to them? An ASBO or a slap on the wrist, most probably.

Only a few weeks ago I made a citizens arrest on a drug-crazed yob. After he roughed up his girlfriend, (who managed to run to safety) he then started on an innocent passer-by, pushing and poking him in order to start a fight. He then stormed over to a female work collegue of mine who was parked up nearby and started banging on his fists on her car.
At this point I decided to intervene - warned him to clear off but he took a couple of swings at me, punching me hard in the side of my head. So I dropped him and restrained him until the police arrived.
The police asked me if I wanted to press charges. I said no and told them that it would be complete waste of my time, their paperwork and taxpayers money.The copper taking my statement could totally see my point.

Personally, I think the sore head and ribs the yob earned himself that day, was more effective than any ASBO a judge could give him. :)

What happened to Borstals ??

Andy, I agree with a lot of what you say, but that's a poor statement. So much for teachers!? Trust me, it's not the teachers' fault. It's the way they are being forced to do so much paperwork and testing in an effort to pander to the OFSTED farce, rather than being allowed to get on with teaching.

When teachers were allowed to teach effectively we all got a reasonable education. When you force them to spend half their time teaching and half doing pointless paperwork (much of it is done just in case it is asked for - often nobody ever looks at it!) then the standard of teaching drops.

Honestly, you are laying blame with the wrong people. They aren't allowed to do their job.

Marking homework whilst watching TV then complaining that it has taken so long to do!

Renovating houses as well as the day job.

Taking off to second home in France on that convenient PD day before the official 3mths+ per year holidays or swanking to the kids when you get back re. holidays in all parts of the globe.

Telling the kids that they must think 'green' whilst driving a 4 wheel drive and only living in Sutton Farm!

Relabelling every aspect of the job in order to get pay enhancements.

Call me cynical about teaching but it is a profession of the biggest moaners with the least to moan about. <_<

ha ha. Well of course every profession will include people who slack off, moan, take advantage. But to generalise your comments and imply that the majority of teachers fit your stereotype is, in my opinion, laughable and inaccurate. You clearly haven't been into the average school and seen what the average teacher has to put up with else you would not hold that opinion.

We'll have to agree to differ on this one.

I have been a member of staff in primary, a volunteer in secondary lived in a house of teachers, have family members who are teachers and children still at school.

I agree not all teachers are useless or in it for the money/holidays and that the job is that simple. In the state sector it would be better IMO to return to more formal teaching as tends to be the case in private education.
The children are more able to work and have more of a sense of security when they have a defined personal space. It is much more difficult to get away with disruptive behaviour or bullying, (in class that is) when you have a specific desk or space in the class to call your own and the teacher has better control.

Sorry eastshrewsbury my opinion! Everybody is accountable, as teachers should be, hence OFSTED. We get regular audits at work to make sure we are efficient. I think that teachers get a really good salary and seem to get a lot of holidays they seem to have a lot of, I think its called 'PD days' in term time. So all in all I still stand by what I stated :)

I know I'm incorporating another post from a topic from a month or two ago, but this seems to be a recurring theme on the forum. We do have much more police presence in the U.S. However, we do have a lot of people in jail! I didn't see much law enforcement presence except in Edinburgh because of the Tattoo and in London near the major tourist sites. I don't mean to be critical of the police themselves. I am law enforcement and at times it is very frustrating because my colleagues and I are always saying, "If we were only allowed to do our job."

Sometimes it is the fault of those higher up in the food chain within the organization. However, a lot of times it is those who provide us the funds or make the laws that frustrate us. However, I was taught in the academy that it all starts with officer presence...i.e. authoritative voice....clean uniform.....posture....being seen that will at least deter crime. I didn't see that all. That might not be the force's fault if they don't have funding to be out there.

Of course we don't have anything really equivalent to ASBOs. However, we have more people with guns and if you've noticed the news lately, that may not be a good thing. We have dangerous gangs in the larger cities and much more violent crime because of them.

Since the taxpayer is paying a whole host of benefits to people who happen to have had children, and employment law gives ever more generous maternity and paternity rights at the expense of employers and British industry, we really are not getting value for money from Britain's parents.

Children spend less than half of their lives in school. Given the juvenile crime wave sweeping the country, the worsening child obesity levels, the fact that town centres are becoming no-go zones, and considering that most child abuse is committed by family members, I would suggest that large numbers if not most of Britain's parents are incompetent. Is it not time to introduce OFFPARENT?

Well Mark we have a very unusual judiciary system in the UK, I work through the British courts and can tell you that all the prisons in the UK are full. A man called the 'Secretary of State for Justice' Jack Straw is the minister who is supposed to oversee this but as most of our MP's seem to be totally innefficient and seem to get away with their bumbling inadequecy. The Magistrates and judges who preside and decide on what happens to people who break the law have been asked by Jack Straw not to sentence people to a jail term because the prisons are absolutely full. It is a totally ridiculous situation to be in, prisons are being built but are not ready and some prisoners, muggers and burglars, are having their sentence dramatically cut.

The only time we seem to have a large Police prescence is at football matches , demonstrations, however forunately for Police who have to do ridiculously large amounts of paperwork when any crime is recorded which ties them to this for hours, will soon be doing what they are supposed to do as the force are going to use civilian employees to process all police paperwork leaving 'bobbies' on the beat. One positive thing I suppose

Andy, the Home Secretary is Jacqui Smith. Jack Straw is the Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor. The Home Secretary's department is responsible for policing, whilst the Lord Chancellor's department is responsible for the judiciary and prisons.

Whats in a name ! I will adjust. Thanks

I agree. a lot are too busy paying mortgages to see their children.

Now £250 is paid on the birth that problem should be solved! :D

Whether the majority of teachers are doing a bad job or a good job, as Town Walls points out, a child's bad behaviour is far more attributable to parenting than teaching.

When I was at school, our teachers weren't up to much. They weren't terrible, but they weren't great. It was a run of the mill state comprehensive school. But here's the thing. I worked hard and I stayed out of trouble. Not because of the teachers, but because I respected my parents who taught me right from wrong.

To be honest I haven't seen much bad behaviour in my part of Shrewsbury, but just yesterday a handful of little chavs took it upon themselves to dismantle our elderley neighbour's wall and destroyed their hedge. Apparently our neighbours have reported the matter before but the police have been unable to do anything. I shall now be interested to see whether they will be able to act upon the high resolution cristal-clear photographs I submitted to them that show the kids faces plain as day and in the act of causing criminal damage.

Thinking about it, they were only about thirteen years old so they will probably not even be spoken to, except to ask whether they would like to press charges against me for taking their photograph without their permission. :blink:

Frankly I have lost nearly all faith in this country's police and judiciary. It's a complete farce.

Interesting how there are teams of traffic/parking wardens there to patrol Shrewsbury's streets (which I will state now - I fully agree with this) but the town centre has a lone warden to deal with all other issues (the "town centre warden"? - the guy in green). There should be a small team of these town centre wardens patrolling Shrewsbury's town centre and immediate surrounds, checking unruly behaviour, helping visitors and the elderly, etc. Better still, there should be police on foot patrol in the town centre during the day. Shock horror.

My son was in the Quarry when a gang demanded money off another kid. He told a policeman nearby and they acted very quickly and arrested the gang. It all took a long time, several months and was a bit stressful for my son and his friend but they did not have to attend court in the end fortunately, as the gang pleaded guilty to a lesser charge or something. I had mixed feelings as I don't like the idea of young people having a criminal conviction but we did what we understood to be right and personally I have no interest in what the outcome was.

Cannot understand your reasoning here Lemon Squeezer I think if anyone of 'legal' age commits a crime they need to be punished surely?

Eastshrewsbury, evidence in court such as video photographic and even mobile phone video camera footage is accepted . I would have thought the Police could not help your neighbours initially because the incident had no evidence. You can be prosecuted over the age of 10 years old so the thirteen year olds can be dealt with through the courts. The evidence you give to the police in photo form would i'm sure lead to a prosecution you could have to be witness to this in court obviously when the case comes up. Co-incidentally not many people who witness incidents come forward to give evidence in court, which gives the police little support in helping convict these alleged criminals. This is probably in fear of retribution but the witness service really protects any witness throughout any trial or investigation

Did you actually read my post Andy?

The police did prosecute, my son was a witness with all that entails but in the end did not have to attend court as the gang pleaded guilty to a lesser charge rather than 'not guilty' to a more serious charge that the police were confident they could suceed with. This mean't that my son did not have to attend court and as I said, I have no idea what the punishment was but I hope that the longterm result is that they becoming better citizens.

My son did worry about retribution but as I said we did what we thought was right. I hope we were.

A criminal conviction is quite a heavy punishment IMO.

Going slightly on a tangent, but anyhow... this guy would definitely appear in the "Guide To Spotting Thugs"...

http://www.shropshirestar.com/2008/02/robb...n-86-locked-up/

Basically screams at you "I am going to mug/stab/rape/burgle/pester you"!!

Probably this guy would as well

http://www.shropshirestar.com/2008/02/hero...vers-baby-girl/

As a young blade myself, it's interesting the different reactions I've got from passers-by in town when I've closely cropped hair compared to when I've let it grow. St John's Hill is the best place for receiving prolonged looks of concern.

I can imagine! :rolleyes:

You cant judge a book by its cover PS. I think this is how so many people in soceity get a label they dont deserve. I died my hair blue once for a charity, everyone kept asking me if I was a 'goth'! Now I was then about as Goth as an egg sandwich! If I was judging people in this context I wouldnt really give any of our politicians the time of day, shady corrupt, ugly. This list is endless

I did read your post Lemon Squeezer I just cant understand why someone who commits a crime should escape conviction

These young people seem to get away with enough dont you think? A mugging can scar the victim for a very long time I think victims in these incidents are often forgotten

These people is a bit of a sweeping statement.
One of the girls invlolved was in my daughters year at school and had got in with a bad crowd.

http://www.shropshirestar.com/2008/02/hero...vers-baby-girl/

Come to think of it that one in the middle with the bald head looks a bit of a thug! :D

I was refering to the group of young people who were demanding money by menace you referred to initially ''these people'' :unsure:

The trouble is Andy is saying 'these' people is a kind of namelessness whereas these girls were apparently known to the police and we were persuaded that though this was a fairly minor crime (some might have called it bullying) the immediacy of my sons action and a policeman being close by on that occasion mean't that they had a good case.
I had to trust the police that there was good reason for this case to go forward but it still made me feel uncomfortable. If it has led to them sorting themselves out and becoming better people then great but confidence in the system regarding young people is something that perhaps I haven't got.
As my son was not the victim but just a witness then I shouldn't feel responsible, I believe the parents of the victim were sufficiently knowledgable about the gang to wish to persue the prosecution.

I can honestly say that I don't go looking for trouble - but I've just had to spend the last hour or so driving around the Reabrook, Sutton and Springfield areas looking for a group of chav scumbags who had earlier verbally abused my wife. One of the group is also responsible for attacking my 12 year old son a while back - an attack which we reported to the police - but guess what? - no response!

If any members of the police force happen to be looking at this forum, I've got this to say to you - YOU'RE A BLOODY WASTE OF TIME!
My son ( a chronic asthmatic) has been a victim of bullying of these scum - we've reported the incident and you've just ignored us.
Tonight, I felt like their smashing their faces in - luckily for them ( and in hindsight, me) I never found them - because I know for a fact that you'd waste no time coming to arrest me for assault.
As a law-abiding tax-payer, who's been pushed to the bloody limits I'm asking you -JUST DO THE JOB THAT YOU'RE PAID TO DO!