Its official we have the most worst behaved teens in Europe. Nothing to be proud of I know but where the hell did we go wrong? Read This Its annoying because this problem has been with us for nearly a decade. The labour government seem to be able to publish statistics but not tackle the problem ''head-on' Its down to poor parenting it seems. So what do we do? The government are about to do away with ASBOS too!

I think that the minister was saying that if an ASBO has to be used then society has failed that individual. All parties agree that there is a place for ASBO orders and some have even been served on us oldies. I think that the guy meant that we need to do more to stop it getting to that stage.

Sure, it's a parental control problem. You'll see young kids running wild in supermarkets whilst their parent is oblivious not only to their whereabouts but to their behaviour. If parents cannot control their children at that age what chance will they have of so doing in later life?

The saying "Give me the child until he is seven and I will show you the man" comes to mind.

In what other country would you have a situation where yobs are going around urinating int the emergency water bowsers,adding bleach and smashing the taps off,and an old chap was allowed to die,because although the ambulance was on the scene the local yob scum were stoning the crews and by the time the cops got there he was dead.We are on the the road to anarchy in this country if things are allowed to carry on as they are.

I don't think we're unique, look at what happened after Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans. Some of the more lurid tales of cannibalism and mass rapes in the Astrodome might have been urban myths but there certainly were mass lootings and lots of people looking to exploit the misery of others for their own personal gain, you get sick people everywhere.

I think its because these kids know that they are not going to suffer punishment by law as many cases are 'dropped' by magistrates, they must feel invincible. The Police need more powers as do teachers, what was so wrong with youre collar felt, in the past kids feared the Police and Teachers. In a nutshell we are soft because the do-gooders and civil liberty groups. The punisment must fit the crime I say. It may seem futile but you can e-mail 10 Downing Street here I have ,showing disgust to this appauling behaviour from the minority of young yobs!

Jonesey that was an exception where is the disaster that sparks off UKkids? You could compare it to Toxteth I suppose. I think you will find also in New Orleans poverty is a far bigger problem than in the UK and also a culture divide. I think and as you probably know I work with young offenders, drugs play a big role in what kids do for 'kicks' I could tell you sickening facts but am obviously bound by confidentiality. Smoking cannabis seems to becoming crime related now and it is now confirmed it can also affect the brain, in hormonal teenagers this behaviour can be aggressive. Temporal lobe stuff ive been told.

In the Sun today,a picture of a poor dog that had been shot in the head twice at point blank range,the dog lived but the lorry driver who had a concrete block dropped on his cab from a bridge did not.

and what will the thugs get for murdering someone, life..? I doubt it 15 years perhaps

They wouldn't get life in Texas....just the opposite :unsure: Oops, I don't mean to start a death penalty debate.

Hi Mark
How would crimes like these be treated in Texas,i would like to know how you guys treat these low lives.

Day in Day out there are more of these cowardly acts by gangs of yobs, it seems to continue unabated See Here A Father and Son enjoying themselves becomes a sad tradegy. If the government do not do anything to act swiftly or at least respond they will start to loose all credibility of trust. This case will be a test on our judiciary although the youths were young, they were totally aware of what they were doing :angry:

I can't see that Government can do anything about things like this in the short term. We have ASBOs available but these are of no use before the event. Just why would kids do what they are said to have done (if proved in Court, of course)? We don't know if there was any aggro or previous which might have led to this but that would be no excuse.

I believe that this is a social problem of our own making due, in part, to a lack of parental control and a general lack of respect for authority and everyone else which has built up over many years. There has been a gradual shift to protecting the rights of the guilty whilst forgetting those of the innocent. Bring back the birch.

Rant over. :rolleyes:

Yes, absolutely. I knew exactly what I was doing at their age and knew that if I ever did anything like that my life wouldn't be worth living, so to speak. And as has already been said below, it is because they have no fear of authority these days. Kids as young as six and seven know exactly what their rights are and know how to abuse this information. But how do you solve it? Andy, do you think jail has a positive effect on them, or does it make them worse? I definitely think that if people can see no consequences for what they do they will continue to act in an anti social manner. To illustrate the point, people talking on mobile phones while driving. I saw 3 people doing it this morning within a mile of driving. They continue to break the law because a) there is little chance of them getting caught, and b. because it is only a £60 fine if they do. Make the fine £10,000 and you'd immediately solve the problem because people wouldn't dare risk it. Why is British justice so lacking in logical thinking? Surely there is a way to make kids more responsible? I'm not sure what it is but there must be one.

I'm still looking forward to Marks reply,because i dont think the Americans are as soft as us.

I think that a custodial sentence for a young person, personally does more harm than good, its like puting all your eggs, collectively, in one basket or bad apples! These young people will learn from their sentence negatively and will probably re-offend in a more violent crime. I wouldnt endorse anything from the states regarding upholding the law. They have the same problems we have but on a larger scale and because of social behaviour and indeed less family values and more gang culture and its younger american people involved in it rather than in the UK whos gang members are older. The only positive in their system is a 'restorative justice' system whereby the offender is shown the phschological damage they have done to people not only to their victim but often the victims family and relations. This is now being practiced here and has had good affect.

The Americans are way harsher than anybody in the democratic world, us included. The USA has 2 million people locked up compared to 80,000 here or 60,000 in France. Even accounting for the higher population that's a rate of incarceration 400% higher than here, a huge expense both in terms of cash spent and in terms of wasted lives.

It would be worth it though if it worked but I'm not sure that it does. Despite having the 2 million most dangerous people out of circulation their murder rate is still way higher than ours and the rates of other less serious crimes are similar or only slightly less than us.

A better example for us to look towards would be those countries that don't feel the need to lock up huge numbers of people but still have low crime, Sweden, Japan, South Korea, Denmark, Austria, Slovenia etc. What do these societies do that we don't?

Mark was coming to the UK on holiday around now so that may be way he hasn't replied.

"Restorative Justice" as referred to by Andy sounds a step in the right direction as it seeks to reform offender's behaviour.

One thing I notice is the lack of deterrent fines. Fines for driving without insurance seem to be way below the cost of having insurance and can be less than speeding and parking fines for example. Rather than cautions, would there be a case for set heavy fines? It would be argued that the person couldn't afford to pay the fine but they could if the money were to be deducted from their earnings in the long term. University students take out loans which are recovered over a number of years from their earnings so why couldn't the same system be applied to offenders?

A better example for us to look towards would be those countries that don't feel the need to lock up huge numbers of people but still have low crime, Sweden, Japan, South Korea, Denmark, Austria, Slovenia etc. What do these societies do that we don't? <quote>
They bring their children up properley to respect other people and their elders !!!!!
For example I was told to fxxx off by a 4 year old the other day and when I told him off he said My mum says it to me (so thats ok then?) :o :angry:

i think it is disgusting and must be something to do with the parents surely-althought they cant be held totally responsible but i know if my son did anything like these acts of violence etc you have mentioned i would be horrified. i think the parents need to be able to punish their children correctly and teach them right from wrong-like you say i would have known it was not the way to behave at that age so why shouldnt they?
my husband has had his windscreen smashed twice now by yobbos throwing things off the bridge coming back from telford!
that is an awful cowardly thing to do i think and could easily cause some real damage and possible accidents.
they dont think or care about the effects of what they are doing, and i honestly cant see what fun it can be to do these things!! :angry:

I don't buy the excuse that some yobs give of "there's nothing to do round here", there was not a lot to do in Wem where I grew up in the 80s so we just rode round on our bikes all day, played some football in the park, watched videos and did homework, we didn't vandalise trains or threaten passers-by.

The vast majority of young people are good and they get along fine with the same facilities and leisure opportunities that the yobs do.

The simple fact Kate is although people are really annoyed about these situations, they do very little when they happen. The Police obviously have to do their job but when the offenders are arrested and charged magistrates do very little,. For example a public order offence, if a person was to verbally abuse only to a police officer, often magistrates will repremand offenders and do little else saying the police are paid to take remarks like that which they are obviously not, no one should be abused in this fashion. However if under section four Public Order if you were to witness abusive behaviour that caused you distress then a lot more could happen regarding prosecution. You would obviously have to make a statement to the police which magistrates will read. There is very little support for the Police here, we need to be their eyes and ears as responsible citizens and be ready to make witness statements too.

I've posted on this thread that I feel that that a lack of parental control is a root cause of the problem. Kateharris and Lairdmichael's posts seem to reflect the same.

I posted that the saying "Give me the child until he is seven and I will show you the man" comes to mind.

Lairdmichael posted "For example I was told to fxxx off by a 4 year old the other day and when I told him off he said My mum says it to me (so thats ok then?".

I think that Lairdmichael's post sums it up. Just how will that youngster behave in future years given that upbringing? :(

We haven't made it over there yet. I've just been busy preparing to travel and been working the graveyard shift. I've moved around quite a bit until recently and lived in a couple of cities with over 100,000 residents. Now, I live in a very isolated community of about 5,000. This seems to be a recurring topic on the forum and reading news from other areas of the UK, I see that Shropshire is not the only area plagued by these guys.

I don't understand it. To me, whatever punishment is being levied by the police there apparently isn't enough to deter that type of behavior. It's amazing to me that the same person could have their windscreen smashed twice by some jerks throwing something off a bridge.

Here in the not-so-wild west, where I live crime is almost non-existent. Everyone knows everyone.

Only in the much larger cities do I ever hear about gang problems in the States. No, maybe we are harsher on crime, but as Jonesy mentioned, our prison system is stretched to the max. I'm not sure the system works, but I tend to take a hard-line stance on crime.....I have to in my line of work.

I'm also unfamiliar with your ASBOs. What are they? Are they of any worth?

Someone else can probably answer better than I, but I shall have a go.
ASBO stands for anti social behaviour order.
They are given for lots of reasons but an example may be a teenager who terrorises a neighbourhood. The ASBO conditions might be that he/she cannot go on certain streets. And they aren't just for kids, you may get an eighty year old woman with an ASBO that says she is playing loud music at anti-social hours, so she isn't allowed to play loud music between 7pm and 7am. Things like that. Do they work? Well, I heard people moaning that something like 50% of ASBOs have been breached and they are therefore not working. But what about the other 50% that have worked. I don't know whether they are good or not. Some out of control kids see them as a badge of honour I suppose, but it's like anything, it will work for some and not for others.

One thing that's interesting about ASBOs is that only a civil standard of evidence (balance of probabilities) is needed to impose one but breaking the conditions is a criminal offence.

Perhaps we should change the word "criminal" in that sentence to "capital" :)

Just read this from broadcaster Jeremy Vine. He said he is amazed no one attempts to intervene on an assault on the tube. Some people think its foolish but as I have said before strength in numbers applies here. Read This
Action network explained

I think the main problems are lack of respect and break down in community.

There is a lack of respect for other people, for the general community and environment and also a lack of self respect. Do these people think they've got much of a future, do they think they've got something really positive to contribute to society? I suspect not.

I think when there are smaller communities it's probably easier to control bad behaviour since pretty much everyone will be known to everyone else. I don't think this is something that can change. Some communities have been breaking down for centuries the sudden expansion of urban populations during and since the industrial revolution saw to that. I think it will probably be centuries of the vast majority of people working hard to gain that sense of community for there to be real improvement in all areas.

Also the political system means that short term action is going to be muchly prefered by politicians since any benefits of long term programmes won't be seen for years, wich won't help the politicians get re-elected.

:(

I think both Labour and the very weak oppositon are completely out of touch with the people of this country now as also are the judiciary. A paedophile jehovah witness who ruined the lives of over 25 people walks free from court today!!! Where is the justice here ? Every law abiding citizen wants to see action against almost daily now, barbaric acts, yet the government seem full of rhetoric. Gordon Brown seems to be becoming a man of words only. There is NO action. These men who control our country need to show responsibility in their status and act NOW.

There may be an appeal in the case you mention Andy. You are right though in that our justice system doesn't seem to offer much justice sometimes. Minor offences of theft or assault seem to lead to cautions rather than the heavy fines dished out for serious offences such as driving at 35 mph in a 30 mph area after midnight or parking where you shouldn't. We have a justice ministry now led by Jack Straw. Time for a review of penalties.

Sadly now I think there is a turning point in youth culture in the UK and this can only become worse. Kids generally on the fringe of crime are turning to gang culture. There is more respect for them sometimes than in a family unit and if a gang does commit crime they do it on mass thinking that individually they will not get the blame. In the states the police target youth gangs and have had success taking video of the whole gang and posting it on local websites. You cant say the government have not seen this coming, the reason the Home office have gone against using the word gang now becomes apparent. Once again too little too late from a somewhat insular labour government.

I blame the parents for the out of control teenagers and also the goverment who now make it so easy for troublesome youths, when i was a mere lass i was told to be in at 9 every evening and if i ever answered my parents back i was for the high jump. May be the town needs more youth clubs etc to keep the kids amused or even better a kerfew after school hours. :D

I agree that parental control is at the heart of the problem as I've said before. It is easy to blame government and opposition parties will seek to score political points by implying that they would cure all social ills. At the end of the day though it is a social problem that no politician can cure.

When they (the kids) are interviewed they often say that there is nothing to do, no youth clubs, etc. But I'm not so sure that's a good excuse. I never had anything like that but we made our own (non destructive) entertainment. I think the whole issue is very complicated and there isn't a simple answer. Parents are very much to blame in a massive number of cases. The justice system isn't geared up to deal with them. The governement pay little more than lip service to the problem because it doesn't know what the answer is either. And as DebW said, the kids themselves are more switched on, the are aware that there is nothing in place to stop them so they have no fear.

Boils down to far more than the parenting too I feel. I think that the word 'family' cannot be defined correctly in our soceity today, well certainly family values. The divorce rate is still high, less people seem to be getting married, kids are getting pregnant at 13/14 very often to score points to get a council house, we have the highest levels of teenage pregnancy in europe, these offspring seem to grow up without any father figures in their lifes and a very often neglected due to bad parenting from thier far too young mothers. How many cases do you see in court regarding this for a couple having underage sex, none! Also a father figure is often missing in some kids lives, They then find they can get more attention from older 'role-model' types in social groups, dare I say gangs. They are 'listened 'to far more and 'respected' therefore are more open to abuse in this fashion then drawn into crime. We live in a very fast paced soceity where both parents in a functional family still need to work to substain a descent living. This often leaves kids 'home alone' in school holiday breaks which in some cases depending on age is illegal but hardly tackled by social services. So yes, and I notice people on this thread say in plural parents, when very often there is one lone parent, we need to look at the role of the parent in todays soceity. I feel that the youth service we have in this country needs to incorporate with youth justice under the same umbrella to be productive here.

We're in Scotland right now. I love Scotland! Anyway, I like the headline in one newspaper I saw...."If All The Police in Britain Were Abducted by Aliens, Would Anyone Notice?" How true! You have absolutely no law enforcement presence. I saw more policeman at the start of the Edinburgh Military Tattoo than I have the entire trip. And, that wasn't much. Having a great time, BTW.

Welcome to the UK, Mark.

If you want to see some police then try going to a soccer match! It'll be interesting to hear your impressions and thoughts as your holiday continues.

Hope you enjoy your stay.

I agree that you don't often see them, but do you mean during the day, or at night? I don't think high level policing is needed so much during the day, but it would be good to see more of them at night when the yobs come out to play.

And yes, football match policing can be almost beyond belief. I was getting off a train in Manchester once while Manchester United were playing Liverpool. There must have been a hundred police offices in full riot uniform. There were even police on the roof with guns. For a football match! I also think it is sad that they felt the need to praise the fans of a Shrewsbury - Fulham match the other night for not causing trouble. I didn't cause any trouble that night while I was on my allotment, but nobody praised me. :D

Well Mark, Edinbugh isnt exactly Los Angeles, thank god, the only time as posters say Police prescence seems to be in abundance is during the football(soccer) season in our country. Low profile is ok I think when people are having fun.

Football tribes are another issue in this country regretably and some of them have little regard for anything other than the club they support so theycost the tax payer and I think the club they support dearly on containing anti-social behaviour on match days

Well done :D

I didn't cause a riot yesterday evening, but merely went for a quiet ramble over the Long Mynd. This evening I'm planning on washing some towels. I'm not anticipating any violence. Can I have a gold star?

I heard several drunken arguments from boozehounds on the way home, but managed not to throw rotten fruit out of my window on their heads. Gold star for me too, please.